A Real Catholic Priest!

[00:00:22] Speaker A: It allows me to do, like, import my brand, like identity, colors, logos, and things like that. It'll automatically put it on the video. [00:00:31] Speaker B: See that in the corner? That's, that's from Riverside. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Yep, Yep. Exports at 4k. I can just download a fully edited video. It does all the stuff for me, so I can just download it and put it straight to YouTube, which is great. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Can you. Since there's a possibility. What should I. Is it possible for me to change the first Father Victor, my full name? [00:00:55] Speaker A: Yeah, if you want. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Let me see how I do that. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I think you just double click it. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Oh, that is slick. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Good. Let's put that on there. Yeah, look at that. A real Roman Catholic priest. [00:01:21] Speaker B: You had. Cancel that. Cancel that. I was. There we go. Okay. You had Father Tom Bombadil with you, right? [00:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really cool guy. Really, really sweet guy. [00:01:36] Speaker B: I'm glad you got to talk to Daniel Katone. Yeah, yeah, I like him too. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Also a really cool guy. How long have you been a priest for? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Going on 16 years, since 2009. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. Why did you decide to come on a Lutheran podcast? [00:01:58] Speaker B: Well, you know, I thought it'd be an interesting conversation, and one of the things I like about Twitter is the connections with people and, you know, fellowship and mutual learning that results. And I thought it could only be good, good, good. [00:02:19] Speaker A: I, I aim for friendly ecumenical dialogue when I'm talking to non Lutherans, you know, that's the goal. But I do. Because you're a Roman Catholic, I do have to hit you with a gotcha question. What is your favorite Lutheran contribution to the Roman Catholic Church? Is it Christmas trees? Advent wreaths? I don't think this is us, but I'm going to take credit. Liturgical colors or is it the Novus Ordo? [00:02:54] Speaker B: I, I, I. Some of, some of the Lutheran hymns are in our missiles, and those are humdingers. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some, there's the, the, the hymnity of the Lutheran Church, I think, is really pretty slept on. We have some really great hymns with, with some solid, solid theology. You know, the, the point of the hymns is to continue the teaching. Right. To continue the catechesis. You know, we, we just sing the words now. Yeah. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Each part should build on the other. Like, one of the things our, our best musicians try to do is match the hymns to what, the readings or. [00:03:38] Speaker A: The, you know, of course, the feast. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Day, Christmas on Christmas, but, but also, like, you know, this, the scripture is read at this Mass. Let's, let's make sure we get include this, this hymn that features it prominently. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we, our, our pastors will do the same thing. They'll look at the readings for the day and then nowadays with fancy technology, you know, there's, there are things that suggest the hymn. So these hymns are, yeah, are sort of similar in content, you know. And so I know my pastor, he'll sit down and look through a collection of hymns before settling on the ones for the day. [00:04:10] Speaker B: A lot of the, the hymnals have like guides for the musical coordinator and they'll say, okay, for this Sunday, these are recommended. And then they select from those. [00:04:21] Speaker A: So, so here's a difference between us that I notice right now as we're talking about it. You're talking about music coordinators picking hymns. This is, this is the pastoral job here. We are, our pastors, the ones that do that, that pick the hymns. I mean, you just, on your end of it, on the Roman Catholic end, you, you just put together the homily and say the hocus pocus and like that's, that's it. Huh? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Well, I suppose the pastor could say these are all the hymns that are going to be sung for this particular liturgy. But unless the, the hymns are, I don't know, poorly chosen or inappropriate, and if you don't find that they are, I think it can be handed to another to choose appropriate hymns. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Sure, sure. That's interesting. I just, I just wonder if it's more of a, more of a hands off thing in the Catholic Church. I guess you have more, I don't want to say like ordained necessarily offices, but more like church worker. You know, I think part of it. [00:05:43] Speaker B: Is, I think that's usually the way at most parishes I've been. I mean, in theory the pastor could do it, but you know, the, the musician or the person who's picking the hymns is probably a volunteer and if there's a choir, they're all volunteering too. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Sure. [00:05:59] Speaker B: And so if they chose one hymn over another could be because, you know, they're better at playing one than another or singing one than another or, or the, you know, nothing that can happen is the pastor can say, I want this hymn sung and no one knows that hymn. And it, you know, it just kind of. And it's immediately obvious that people don't know it. [00:06:18] Speaker A: So. [00:06:20] Speaker B: So I guess you could assert it, but it's not necessary. And you could, you could choose poorly if you said this is what you're going to sing this weekend. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Right. Common, common thing that happens when Lutheran pastors receive a call is they are given a. Here's a list of hymns that our people actually know how to sing. Out of the. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Out of the. [00:06:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's your cat's name? [00:06:52] Speaker B: When I. When I wanted it. When I became a pastor at my previous parish. Okay. I got some roots here. I'm going to get a cat. So I went to the rescue shelter looking for. For a black cat. A black cat. Why did I want a black cat? You know, spur against superstition. No, no, because every day I'm wearing black clothes, so black hair fits perfectly. I got the cat they kept in the lobby. Super duper friendly, not crazy good with people. And I asked a. A priest friend of mine, what should I name name him? And, and he said, you should name him Leo, which is Latin for lion, but there's a Pope Leo xiii. And I didn't want any confusion, so my cat's named Leo the 14th. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Oh, excellent. Beautiful. [00:07:38] Speaker B: I like that. [00:07:39] Speaker A: That's cute. That's super cute. [00:07:42] Speaker B: Super duper friendly. Someone comes into the, into the office and he always hops up on the desk. Apparently he's a Bengal cat which was bred in the 50s and 60s in Kentucky to be all black. And, and they're super duper friendly, but also if you put food in front of them, they'll eat it, so they have a tendency to get plump. So. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah. What. How long have you been at your current parish? [00:08:08] Speaker B: Going on eight years, I believe. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Okay. At least seven are Roman Catholics. Common where your parish is in this. [00:08:20] Speaker B: Part of the country? I think it's about a third the population, so I'd say yes. When you look at a map of Catholic distribution throughout the country, Wisconsin, Iowa, southern Minnesota, there's a concentration there, you see. See that? Similarly on the east coast and like the New York region and the Southwest and the Deep south in Texas, not, not Southeast, but. But yeah, there's. There's a good number of Catholics here. Between my two parishes, the two churches, they add up to about, about 800 families or so. [00:08:56] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So you're, you're doing a dual. A dual parish, huh? [00:09:01] Speaker B: Yes, but thankfully there is an associate priest. When I got here, there was five weekend Masses between Saturday and Sunday, and, and everyone, when I consulted the people, everyone agreed. Yeah, five's a lot. You know, it'd be pretty, probably a good idea for you to reduce that down to four, but don't take our Mass. So I got pretty discouraged. I was like, I guess I'm just gonna have to grind through this. But one of my council members Said, you know what? If you were to reduce the Mass, you'd probably have reduced giving as much or more than the cost of getting an associate priest. So how about you ask the diocese for an associate and then you can keep the Mass schedule as it is, and you have the benefits of having an associate with you and all the other ways that having an extra person, knowledgeable, able to teach and lead would be. And so I asked, and our diocese, as they have a number of times, have a associate priest in my parish, a very good and helpful fella from southern India, where they have more. More clergy than they apparently need at the time. There's something like 30 or 40 million Catholics in southern India. Yeah, you know, it's like minuscule in a country of a billion, but that's seems pretty substantial. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I figured our inroads in the Asiatic region was pretty terrible. I figure India, India's tough because the, the religion, Hinduism, lends itself to syncretism. You know, what's. It's. It's, you know, any ancestors or gods, and when they run across other gods, they say, oh, we'll just throw you in the pantheon. And, you know, so sort of lends itself to that. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Interesting. I've learned from my previous Indian associate past from my current Indian associate pastor in, In India, in their southern region, the, The Hindus and the Muslims and the Catholic Christians all get along pretty well. Like, when one of them has a festival, the other ones come to it. He says it's more intolerant in the north. And the government they have likes to play the, the, you know, India is Hindu. Hindu pride kind of thing. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:24] Speaker B: And. But. But where he's at, the, the groups get along rather well. [00:11:31] Speaker A: Do you have any statistics on Catholicism in places like Japan or China? [00:11:38] Speaker B: Oh, no, I don't. Interesting thing about India. They claim their origins to the apostolic work of St. Thomas and believe they have a church built by St. Thomas, one of the oldest Christian churches in the world. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Wow. [00:11:53] Speaker B: So, yeah, like, the idea that Christianity in India is older than Christianity in, like, France, it's. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's so funny. We, we have a similar thing kind of, I guess when you think Lutheran, you think German and, you know, sauerkraut and, you know, all this bratwurst and beer and all this. But the currently the largest, densest population of Lutherans in the world is in, like, Ethiopia. So, you know, we're. We're actually an Ethiopian religion now, you know, not a, Not a German one. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Was Ethiopia a German colony or something? [00:12:37] Speaker A: I Don't know. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Okay. You know, maybe a eunuch came to visit or something. [00:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, it's just. It's interesting. You know, there's. There's, like, these. So Madagascar. Madagascar is another place where Lutheranism has really taken hold, where you have a lot of the. There's. There's a weird sort of syncretism that happened there with Catholicism, and then there was a lot of retained sort of animism and ancestor worship and whatnot. And I don't know, when some Lutheran missionaries got there, and I don't know, it worked. So. Yeah. So now you have a little tiny island off the coast of Africa that's like 50 Lutheran, 30 Catholic. And then, you know, the rest is just sort of whatever is there. So what's been. What's been your biggest joy in ministry? What's the thing that keeps you going? [00:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that one of my favorite things in ministry is when something that I taught or some advice that I could give really, really consoled and encouraged or enlightened somebody that feels really, really good. Sometimes it's really hard to tell the impact that you've had. So, you know, like. Like, if you preach well all the time, people don't tell you, that was a really good homily. Because it's always good, Father, you know? [00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:19] Speaker B: But. But being able to see in front of you that, you know, you really help somebody, that. That feels really good. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. What's. What's been a harder moment? [00:14:33] Speaker B: The. I think. I think this might be a universal thing. That's my hunch that the complaints, you know, when you try your best and maybe you fail or you try your best and that's not good enough for another person, or, you know, rumors about you and they come back to you, like, have I been with you all this time and you still do not know me? [00:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:54] Speaker B: That can. That can make you feel like Moses. Like, I brought you out here. You're still. Still complaining. That's. That hurts. [00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Moses is a better man than me, though, because I would just be like, all right, God, go ahead, smite him. [00:15:08] Speaker B: I'll start over. [00:15:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's. I guess, like, it kind of sucks working all day every day with a bunch of sinners. You know what I mean? Sure. [00:15:27] Speaker B: I had a joke in seminary. Lord, I could do so much for you. I could do so much ministry if you just get these people out of the way. [00:15:33] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, It's. It's funny, man. My. My pastor today was. He was. Was Preaching about how, like, oftentimes we can be judgmental of other people and we. And we fail to see how sinful we are. You know, we're doing this, you know, oh, oh, look at the sin of this guy. And he mentioned, you know, he said, there's these people that leave a mattress out. They leave it out by the side of the road. It's been out there for like a year now because the trash company doesn't pick up mattresses unless you pay them for it. So it's just been sitting out there where their trash cans go, and they're not going to pay anybody to pick it up, and they're hoping if they just leave it there, you know, it's an eyesore in the neighborhood and all this. And he said, every time I drive by it, I grumble and I think, man, I'm glad I'm not like those people. And, you know, he said, that's, you know, that's me being. Not realizing that I'm just as sinful. And I. I pulled him aside afterwards. I said. I said, you know, Joe, all this time you've been free to pick up the mattress yourself and take it away. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Free mattress? [00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you don't want it there and it's an eyesore. Just take it to the dump. How much does it cost to throw away a mattress? You know, I can tell you, I used to work at our dump here. It's 10 bucks. [00:16:53] Speaker B: 10 bucks. [00:16:54] Speaker A: All right. [00:16:55] Speaker B: You got a truck? [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah. What's. You got a pickup truck? And what's 10 bucks, you know? Yeah, but we. We do that a lot, though, don't we? Where we. Where we. It's so easy to think so highly of ourselves, I guess. Yeah, it's. [00:17:14] Speaker B: It's. It's easy to complain. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:20] Speaker B: And if you didn't have anything to complain about, you can complain about that. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Whenever. Whenever I run across someone, you say, how you doing? And they say, oh, can't complain. I always say, well, it wouldn't do you any good anyway, you know, even if you. [00:17:37] Speaker B: I like the response. The. How you doing? Blessed, you know, I need to do it more often. But it's like. That's a great answer, you know, Especially. [00:17:43] Speaker A: If you're in a. In a clerical. Just like. It's just really on brand. Yeah. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Easy, Easy. Witness. [00:17:52] Speaker A: So do you. Do you wear your collar out and about? Yeah, yeah. [00:17:58] Speaker B: It makes you, I think, approachable and. And people have a need or a question because I think I, like, Like, in theory, you could Go. I mean, it's standard and kind of expected to be in clerics out in the world, but if you're not in clerics, you kind of send the vibe. Don't approach me. You know, like, people who aren't. Don't know your priests aren't gonna, aren't gonna know your priest. And people who do are gonna be like, oh, I guess he's off duty now. Yeah, you know, but, but being approached isn't. Isn't that common. But, but that's another easy evangelism, you know? [00:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Oh, they're still, there's still people entering the ministry. That's, that's good. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Do people, when people approach you, I mean, I guess it's kind of a mixed bag what you're going to get. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:52] Speaker A: They either want to make a joke about something that, oh, this is a priest, he'll think this is funny, or they want to hit you with like the hardest life question ever while you're standing at the checkout line at the Kroger, you know. [00:19:14] Speaker B: Doesn'T happen that often though. Maybe it's a small town, you know. But when I'm approached, it's usually a parishioner. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Usually just hello. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, probably. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Probably different. A big city, though. [00:19:25] Speaker A: I. I wear mine when I'm traveling for like church stuff or if I'm doing like any of the things at church. We're encouraged. Our seminary encourages us to wear them when you're doing church stuff. So I like to wear it when I travel because it. The same thing. I think it, I think it offers an easy, an easy opportunity, but I don't know. I don't know if it is. I mean, I guess it's increased my random conversations with strangers rate because that was zero. Now it's like at least five. So. [00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Where are you on the. In the process of formation, I've got. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Another two or three years left, depending on how, how hard I push through these classes. [00:20:23] Speaker B: And then what would you like to do? [00:20:27] Speaker A: Well, I've met all of the vicarage requirements at my current congregation for our vicarage program. But because I wasn't assigned a vicarage program at our current congregation by the denomination, it's up in the air as to whether or not they'll accept that. So there's a chance they'll want me to do a full straight 18 month vicarage somewhere, which is that pastorship. Yeah, kind of. I would be like an associate. And it's like on the job training is how we do it. So they give you, they give you time under a mentor at a congregation to do, you know, everything to do the stuff and so that you can see what it's like and, you know, sort of get your feet wet before they throw you into a call. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Would that be a paid position? [00:21:21] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Provided, I mean, I, I guess provided the church could afford it. I don't know. Some of them are. If they wanted me to do a vicarage, I would lobby very hard to just do an 18 month vicarage at my current congregation so that I don't have to move for that. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Because moving for 18 months and then turn around and moving again for the call. The actual call that I would get is a lot. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:50] Speaker A: So if I could do it would be helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll see, we'll see how that goes. But then no matter how that goes, the end result is then they give me a call, they say, hey, here's a church. You know, be there in a month. Nice. Yeah. [00:22:13] Speaker B: How long do the terms last? Is it good behavior as long as the laws, both sides are enjoying it? Or is there like you're expecting to be there five years or something? [00:22:23] Speaker A: Oh, like at a, like, like as a priest at a call. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah. With a vicarage you get, you get appointed calls in place. [00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So like I said, the vicarage is 18 months. And then after that, when I get appointed to a congregation, when I get called there, they will basically, they'll look through the resumes and qualifications of various candidates and the head of our denomination will sort of go back and forth with them on it because he knows all of us. And then he'll help them pick the one. And then let's say they pick me. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Who? [00:22:59] Speaker A: He'll negotiate salary and things like that as needed, and then he'll pass it on to me and say, hey, congratulations, you've been called to be the pastor here and I am there presumably until I die. I mean, that's, that's it. Yeah. [00:23:16] Speaker B: In dioceses with Catholic bishops, like on paper, it's, it's like, I think, I believe it's like six year term, once renewable, at least that's what's supposed to be on paper. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:30] Speaker B: I think the, I think I've heard it said, like, you know, it's good to be someplace for a long time because, you know, the relationships, you know, build and deepen and you know, you can really father the people. But one problem is that you bring your strengths, but you also bring your weaknesses. [00:23:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:47] Speaker B: And, and also if you've been Someplace for a long, long time. It's really, really hard for the next person to take your place. Because, like, one person said, like, if. If. If you've been the pastor someplace for 30 years, everyone who's there probably likes you. And all the people who didn't enjoy the way you did things maybe move to the parish next door. [00:24:05] Speaker A: Yep. [00:24:05] Speaker B: So it's really, really hard. Like, Father Joe didn't do it this way, you know? [00:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:10] Speaker B: So, yeah, I like the. I like more stability, but. But I think spreading around the gifts and spreading on the weaknesses is something to say for it, too. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's a. It's a good way to think about it. We've found that. And I mean, just sort of like Protestants in general have found that when you do have a pastor at a church for, say, 30 years or more, 50 years, whatever, it's neat because here's a guy who. He baptized you as a baby, and now he's baptizing your grandchildren. Like, that's cool. You know, he baptized you, he baptized your kids, he's baptizing your grandkids. Like, that's patriarch. Yeah, this sort of. This sort of, you know, familial bond, you know, where you get to, like you said, Father, and really shepherd these people through their whole lives. That's cool. But studies have shown that when a pastor has been at a church for that long and then he leaves, the next, like, six guys aren't going to be there any more than a year and a half to two years. Just none of. Yeah, like, they just, they. They churn through these guys. It becomes a meat grinder, until eventually they hit one. And, you know, when they hit one, it's usually five or six later that this is the guy. And then he's there for 30 years, you know, and then the process starts all over. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Do you have any wariness of going back to your hometown, returning to Nazareth to do ministry, preaching in the synagogue and, you know, around the people? [00:25:54] Speaker A: Well, I live in my hometown, so this is, you know, I'm here, I'm doing that. I'm doing that thing. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Like you're in a ministry role there now. [00:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. At my. At my current congregation. Yeah. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Cool. [00:26:12] Speaker A: So. But these. I'm a Lutheran convert. I became a Lutheran eight years ago. So these people don't, you know, it's not quite like that. And all the people that did know me when I was younger, I think, think I'm a heretic. If they're still. If they're still Christian, they Think I'm a heretic. And if they're not Christian, then I don't know, they probably just think I'm an idiot for still being a Christian. [00:26:40] Speaker B: What tradition did you come from? [00:26:41] Speaker A: Pentecostal holiness. [00:26:48] Speaker B: What wouldn't they like? Or what was the source of tension? [00:26:54] Speaker A: So they're going to view us as cessationists. They're going to say that we don't have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They want to see. They want to see charismatic, charismatic Christianity. They want to see strange utterance that they'll call tongues. They want to see miraculous signs and wonders. They want a very energetic and emotional worship experience. They want prophecy and these sorts of things. And I just understand all of those things fundamentally differently than they do. [00:27:30] Speaker B: So you say they would. They would say you're secessionist, but you wouldn't. You wouldn't claim that. That description. [00:27:36] Speaker A: No. [00:27:36] Speaker B: So, like, the miraculous still happens, gifts are still given, but they're not necessarily seen well, manifested in ecstatic ways on Sunday morning. [00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God. Does God still step in and heal people immediately? Yes, absolutely. Can someone spontaneously, in a missional context, can someone spontaneously know a language that they previously did not know? Yes, absolutely. The Holy Spirit can. Can give someone supernatural knowledge of a language. You know, Is that the same thing as what my charismatic church was doing growing up, where people were babbling incoherently? No, that's not, you know, that's not it. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Would they describe it as. Because this is how I've. Because there's some charismatic, you know, movements, Catholicism. Would they describe it as like a prayer expressed from within without the, the processing of articulation? Like, some of them a joyful noise. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Some of them, Some of them will say that it's like a, like a prayer language or like a language of the angels they're drawing on. They're drawing on St. Paul there, so. [00:28:54] Speaker B: An angel might understand them word for word? [00:28:59] Speaker A: They're babbling. They're babbling is what they're doing. It's so ecstatic. Utterance like that is. Is a very common thing in even pagan and non Christian religions where you claim to be speaking in some secret spiritual language. That's not, that's not what the. That's not what the biblical authors had in mind when they're describing the gifts of tongues. What they have in mind, we see at Pentecost where everyone says each man is hearing them preach in our own language. This is what they have in mind with the gift of tongues is that you supernaturally know a Language that you previously did not know, and you are then able to spread the gospel in that language. That's the gift of. That's the gift of tongues. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Paul talks about like the gift of, like, I'm not probably using the right word, but like the gift of translation. Is he saying that that's like natural knowledge or that it's just amazing that people can know more than one language? So when someone starts speaking in tongues, which is a earthly language, someone's there who knows it, is translating it naturally, or they have a gift of God to translate a language they don't know. Or is it like, it's just amazing that people know multiple languages. God gives that gift to some people and not to other people because they learn things in natural ways, but having an aptitude for it. So when he. Because I think he talks about both kinds of gifts. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Right, yeah. [00:30:26] Speaker B: Tongues person and the interpreter person. [00:30:27] Speaker A: That's right. I don't, I don't think there's necessarily a need to limit it to any one of those specific definitions. I think someone could perhaps speak in a language they don't know supernaturally and someone else who does know that language happens to, you know, they're edified and built up in their faith, they're able to, you know, translate it or, you know, perhaps it goes the other way or perhaps knowledge on both ends is supernatural or natural on both ends. Who knows? I don't think, I don't find that to really be an issue. Sure. [00:31:05] Speaker B: I went. I once heard a story, I must have read it on the Internet somewhere, about a fella going into surgery and he started praying in tongues. And his, you know, non believing Chinese surgeon picked up a phrase in what the fellow was saying and it was a prayerful utterance. So, you know, so I'm open to the possibilities. Know, I don't see it every Sunday, but, you know, it's. [00:31:35] Speaker A: I think it, I think it starts to become, it starts to become dangerous. When the Christian views these things as completely normative for the church and, and normative for Christian life is this is the danger in it. Because the theology that leads you down is one of despair without fail every time. Because then the. So the problem is that God hasn't promised that you will walk in the miraculous and perform miracles every day. And all this. God hasn't promised that. God hasn't given you the ability to call down when miracles happen. But when you start believing these things are normative for the Christian life, then when you run into problems in your life, you want to deal with it in this miraculous way. And when it doesn't pan out, because again, this isn't. You're making promises for God that God hasn't made. So when it doesn't work, when it doesn't happen, now you have to backfill in a reason why. And your theology does not allow for God to abstain from the miraculous. Right. And that's the problem, is that your theology doesn't allow God to freely choose of his own not to perform a miracle. And so now the problem isn't on God's end. It. It must be on your end. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Faith isn't good enough for. Yeah, exactly. [00:33:14] Speaker A: I didn't believe enough. I had a hidden sin, something like this. Yeah. And it, it just really, really leads to despair. I, I am a part of a. And that's personal. I won't bring it up, but reminds. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Me of, like a prosperity gospel. Like, if you're struggling, it's because of you. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, and it, and it's very much that. And, and the prosperity gospel very much grows out of this kind of theology, this sort of, you know, miracles are normative for the Christian life kind of theology, and miracles aren't normative for the Christian life. I mean, you can do. I mean. Yeah, so there's that, there's that thing people do where they're like, oh, I gave birth to a child. Isn't that miraculous? Oh, I woke up today. That's miraculous. [00:34:02] Speaker B: I mean. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's not. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:34:05] Speaker A: I'm talking about, like. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm talking about getting out of wheelchairs. I'm talking about, you know, let limbs growing back. Things like this, you know, supernaturally miraculous. Not naturally, like the Incredibles. [00:34:20] Speaker B: If everything's a miracle, then nothing's a miracle. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So there. It's. It. It gets dangerous. It gets dangerous when people start a. When they have a misunderstanding of, I think, the terms and definitions that the biblical authors are using for these things. And then when they take those misunderstandings and they incorporate them as a normative facet of the Christian life, I think then that becomes dangerous. It's a recipe for disaster. Instead, I think people would be much better served by just focusing on the people directly around them, loving those people and living out a simple, humble, quiet Christian life. I think the world would be much better served. [00:35:15] Speaker B: One of my favorite conversation questions is, what are you looking forward to? Oh, this side of heaven. Can't cop out and say, heaven gotta be this side of heaven. Some point forward from now. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Uno, reverse Cart. What are you looking forward to? [00:35:32] Speaker B: My associate, a lot of the international priests, they, they go home in January because Wisconsin is very, very cold and they have a month of vacation and, and every year we're supposed to take a week long retreat. So my associate went home for five weeks. So throughout January into February, I was all by myself, which was, you know, back to the five masses and all the other stuff I have to do. But when he came back, it's like, you know what? Be really, really cool to get a little vacation because I don't think I got a vacation last year. I just got busy and distracted. So this week, like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'm gonna go down and visit friends and be with my folks and have a little three or four day vacation. [00:36:19] Speaker A: Why don't you get a month vacation? [00:36:23] Speaker B: I theoretically could. Kinema allows up to 30 days, but I don't think very many priests do it because I don't know how many of my parishioners get 30 days of vacation. You know, they got two weeks, you know, so. So I, I don't feel, don't feel right about taking it all and. But I think it is good to take, you know, take a vacation, get your spiritual retreat in. [00:36:47] Speaker A: Well, because you're, you're not doing, you're not doing your people any good if you burn yourself out. [00:36:52] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. But it's also hard to leave when you feel like, oh, the stuff that I do every day is really important. [00:37:00] Speaker A: But thankfully you have an associate. You have an associate, you have an. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Associate, you can be gone for a weekend. [00:37:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:06] Speaker B: And that'll be great. [00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He, he is also a priest, so. [00:37:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:37:14] Speaker A: It's fine. [00:37:15] Speaker B: Yep. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you live, do you live in like, rectory or parsonage or what have you? [00:37:23] Speaker B: Yep, yep. There's two parishes, two churches, and my associate, Father Ro is in one and I'm here in the other. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Wow. Is. Is your, are your living quarters physically attached to the building, to the church? [00:37:36] Speaker B: They, they are. They're not directly attached, but just across a sidewalk from each other. [00:37:43] Speaker A: Oh. [00:37:44] Speaker B: So, like I tell people, you know, if the weather is bad, you know, you don't have to come, but. But I can always walk, you know, 30ft to the church, so there will be Mass, but. But if it's dangerous, don't come, you know. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Do you, Are you allowed to, like, decorate your parsonage? [00:38:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I certainly could. I just, I. All the things on the wall around me, I mean, like these things, they're Here, when I came. They're all faded. I think they were here a long time before I came. There's been, you know, leached by sunlight. I just guess. I guess, you know, if. If I'll say this. If. If I were married, it'd be much better decorated. But, you know. [00:38:28] Speaker A: I get that I. 100. That's, like the universal guy standard right there. Is. And, like, the thing about those faded. Those faded pictures behind you is a priest did not put those up either. You know, some sweet old lady in the 1980s, whenever that house was built, she was like, let's decorate for Father so and so. [00:38:47] Speaker B: But the butterfly motif probably doesn't go back to, you know, father so and so. [00:38:52] Speaker A: Yeah, some. Some sweet lady was like, oh, he. He needs someone to decorate. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Let's lighten this room up. [00:39:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. That's funny. I have a friend who lives in a parsonage. He's. He's a pastor in Illinois, and he lives in a parsonage. And the biggest trouble he has with the parsonage is, is that he can't do anything. Oh, he. Like, he can, but the parsonage is owned by the church. So if he wants to paint a wall, take down wallpaper, replace carpet, do anything like that that you would do in your own house that you owned, he has to wait for the church to get together and have a board meeting. You know, like, does he have to. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Get permission and pay for it for himself? Pay for himself or. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's rough. Yeah. [00:39:50] Speaker B: And. [00:39:51] Speaker A: And the thing is, so like, your wife. Your wife really hates the wallpaper in the bathroom and wants to take it down and paint. And so you have to wait a whole month to bring it up to the board. And then when you do, they, like, decline. They're like, ah, no, we don't want to do that. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you think they'd be very deferential. I mean, if the pastor's paying for it. You know, like, when someone has a. A thing they want to, you know, donate or do or something like that, and they're gonna pay for it. I mean, I'm very, you know, let me consult. Consultation. But, you know. Yeah, let's do it. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I. I don't know that he's ever actually been turned down, but it's just the fact that, like, oops. Yeah. You don't. You don't own it. Right. And it's. It's your house and you're going to live here. But. So, like, this is a. This is, I think probably the. The Roman Catholic Church handles this better, but this is a challenge with a lot of guys on the Lutheran end is, let's say you are in a parish for 40, 50 years and your kids grow up in this house. You and your wife have all these memories. Your grandkids, they know this house, whatever. And then you pass away. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Everyone goes. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Everyone goes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. Especially, like, if. If you're a pastor and let's say you're a young pastor and you have two kids under 10 and a wife and. And you die in a car accident. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:27] Speaker A: The church will let her stay there, but once they find a new pastor, it's like, well, he has to move in now. And so now we have to kick this widow out of her home. You know, like, that's. That's tough. Yeah. A lot of guys take an allowance instead of living in a parsonage for a lot of those reasons. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker B: And get their own apartment or. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Yep. Get their own apartment or house or what have you. We'll just, you know, we'll pay, you know, instead of paying. Instead of putting you up in this house, we'll just pay whatever the average area rate is for, you know, whatever. And then these guys will go and get a mortgage or what have you. Yeah. And parsonage allowances aren't taxed either, so. Yeah. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Okay. The way to go. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Yeah. What happens when you guys get old? [00:42:26] Speaker B: Usually you get to keep on doing the stuff. You enjoy it as a priest, you know, like hearing confessions, preaching, celebrating Mass and maybe spiritual direction, that kind of thing. But. But you aren't responsible for, you know, all the meetings and the bulletin and making the hard decisions. So, you know, it's. It's retirement. A lot of. Lot of flexibility. But a lot of the senior priests are, you know, you know, covering masses and, and, you know, traveling and such. But. But there's still a lot of doing what you really liked doing. [00:43:05] Speaker A: I. I noticed the same thing among retired Lutheran guys. A lot of retired Lutheran guys spend their time doing pulpit supply. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:12] Speaker A: You know. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Because it's like. Well, I don't know, like, you can't. You can't just leave them. You can't just leave them without a. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Pastor, you know, and the people probably. I mean, the pastors that you are filling in for, they really appreciate it because they get a break. And the parishes or the churches that wouldn't have a service that Sunday, they really appreciate it, you know. You know, in between, you know, this, that, the other thing. So that positive Feedback probably doesn't hurt and, you know, being asked to come out. [00:43:44] Speaker A: So I've noticed a lot of Catholic priests, and I, I noticed this because either they're on the Internet or it's because of the Internet. I noticed a lot of Catholic priests aren't in parish ministry directly, but that, like, there's like, fraternal orders and various other things and different maybe, I don't know, ministry sort of related things that priests do. Like, are you required to work at a church or not? [00:44:17] Speaker B: Twitter. Oh, what? Yeah, exactly. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:23] Speaker B: There's. There's two sorts of priests. There's diocesan priests that studied for a diocese that got ordained by a diocesan bishop, and the expectation is they're going to be serving in that region, that diocese for the, you know, rest of their. Rest of their lives. But there's another branch, religious priests, as in religious order. Priests like the Dominicans, the Franciscans, the Jesuits, the Trappists, you know, you, you join that religious order, maybe they have priests. If they do, you, you know, train with them, you get ordained with them, and you're serving in their provinces, their regions throughout, you know, America or overseas or something like that. And your, you know, your obedience is to the. Your religious superior. So I'm not sure why there might be more religious priests online than secular or diocesan priests. I don't know. Maybe they have a different kind of schedule. Or do those guys. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Do those guys have parishes that they're. Maybe there's just more. There's more, I'll just say Jesuits than. There are churches that the Jesuits have pulpits available in. [00:45:33] Speaker B: They're. They're. They may have parishes that they pastor, they may be teaching, they may be doing some kind of other. It depends on the charism or the mission or the activity of the religious order, you know? [00:45:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:47] Speaker B: These days, if you're a diocesan priest, you're going to be a pastor in a parish just because there's a lot of parishes and not enough priests. Yeah, but in religious order, and you're a priest, I'm not sure what they would. They'd have you do. It could vary. [00:45:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's crazy that. I mean, I, I guess he could, but I think it's crazy that the Pope isn't like, hey, we're short on priests, so, like, I don't care that you're a Franciscan and you don't have, like a parish or whatever. Here's. Here's a church that needs a guy and you're a guy that's technically qualified to do it. [00:46:24] Speaker B: So a bishop could say, hey, Franciscan Order, I could use a number of your priests to pastor some parishes, and they could have two or five parishes in the diocese, you know, and as long as that arrangement endures, they can fill in. [00:46:40] Speaker A: I guess what I'm saying is I'm surprised that it's not mandatory, you know, that it's. That it's. It's running on. It's running on an ask and an agreement and not a, hey, you're qualified, and here's people that need you to do the thing. You know, I think. I think that's interesting, I guess, sort of the politics of it, if that makes sense. [00:47:03] Speaker B: I guess. I suppose the Pope could force it, but in subsidiarity, the belief that the local level probably knows how to handle their problems better than, you know, someone several layers up on the hierarchical. Hierarchical chart is probably the default, you know. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Is it true that just any Catholic man in good standing can be elected Pope? [00:47:26] Speaker B: Yes, in theory. In theory, but in theory, yes. Yeah, you have to. So I was talking to the youth group about this the other day, and, you know, in theory, it's. It's. I don't know if there's ever been a time since they started having the cardinals gather in a conclave where they, you know, no one goes in and out until they elect somebody. I don't think they've ever elected someone outside of that room. But if they elected someone outside of that room, they'd have to send a couple cardinals, you know, on a mission to, you know, the. The guy's parish, you know, whatever, and say, you know, good news, good news, good news, potentially good news, you know, do you accept, you know, and. And, you know, the news be asking how come there hasn't been any voting for the last two days, you know, smoke what's going on? But. But in theory, there he is. I heard a story. I like this story. So fictional story about there's a conclave. They're just, you know, they're not making any headway. It's the hundredth ballot or something like that. And one of the cardinals gives a homily about the time he visited the American United States. And there was a priest out there in the United States, John Johnson, and he took us out in his fishing boat, and we're off the coast, and it's. The fog started coming in, the winds and the waves, and. And we just. And John Johnson, Father John Johnson, he said we just had to look to the light. You know, that's. That. That lighthouse over there that'll bring us back to the port. And he brought us through the storm back to the port. You know, that's what we gotta do in this time of uncertainty, you know. And on the next ballot, a majority vote for Father John Johnson. You know, and so the story is they gotta go to, you know, this guy and ask him if he accepts. But yeah, yeah, could you turn it down? [00:48:56] Speaker A: If they came to you and they said, father Feltus, we want you to be the Pope. [00:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah. The first ash, the first question they ask, do you accept? And if you say I do not accept, they burn the ballots, black smoke, and they keep on going. So has anyone ever declined before? We don't know when you get this one, one mid morning some weekday, say you're a priest, you get a call and they say this is the apostolic, this is the apostolic nocio. However they have the accents of it, you know, maybe I guess to be Italian or something. And you know, they hang up because it's a praying call, but then they call back, no, no, this is really the Abbasio. Pope Francis has named you the Bishop of Walla Walla, Washington, will you accept? And then the priest says, oh, this is, this is really overwhelming. Can I have a little time to think about it, talk to my spiritual director, pray about it? Of course, of course, of course you can say yes tomorrow, but in fact you could say no, you know, and, and maybe for good reasons, maybe for bad reasons, but, but it happens sometimes. [00:49:57] Speaker A: If they called you up and said, hey, you're the, we voted for you, you're the next Pope, would you say yes? [00:50:02] Speaker B: You know what, I don't think I'm qualified, but if that happened, I don't think I could say no because it's so weird. It had to be God that did it, right? [00:50:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the odds? Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. I guess they couldn't elect a non Catholic, huh? [00:50:22] Speaker B: That's another thing. If you elected some random lay Catholic, they would have to be open to getting ordained a deacon, a priest and then a bishop. So they could be the Bishop of Rome, you know, so, so if they elected a non Catholic, I guess, you know, will you, will you hold and subscribe to the Catholic faith? You know. [00:50:42] Speaker A: I mean they, I mean if they just elected a non priest Catholic layman. So it's like, it's like when, it's like when we vote some random reality TV star to be the president, they don't, they don't do all like the background checks and all the, everything else to determine Whether or not he gets a top secret clearance. Right. He just, he just gets the security clearance because he's the president. He has to have it. So is it, I wonder if it's like the same thing. It's like you elect some random, some random lay Catholic and it's like, well, we don't have six years to put you through seminary, so you're a priest now. [00:51:26] Speaker B: Here's the keys to the popemobile. Yeah. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Wild. Yeah. [00:51:35] Speaker B: But that is unlikely in the next conclave. I'm just gonna make a, make, make a, a bold prediction. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:41] Speaker B: That'll probably be a cardinal in the room. [00:51:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you think, do you think the Roman Catholic Church will lift the excommunication on Luther anytime? [00:51:54] Speaker B: I don't know. There was like, the mutual lifting of excommunication for the Eastern Church and the Western church, I think, in like, the 60s. But I don't know. I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I hadn't thought about it. I, I don't see a. Yeah, I, I, I, I couldn't say. I mean, like, there, I mean, there are, there are, there are differences between, you know, Lutherans, Luther's doctrine and what the Catholic Church still teaches. So, you know, I guess, I mean, it depended what lifting that communication means, you know. Yeah, like, like the, the, the, the mutual excommunications didn't mean that the, the Catholic Church changed this idea about filioque to, you know. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:47] Speaker B: You know, so. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Right. It just, it just, the, with, with the excommunication, with an anathema like that. The, at least this is the Eastern understanding. If you're excommunicated, you're going to hell unless you can show repentance and be sort of admitted back in. If they kick you out, it means they're kicking you not just out of the church body, but out of the faith entirely. You are no longer a Christian. [00:53:21] Speaker B: It's a very, very grave thing to be excommunicated. But I think there was a Australian saint, I think, by the name of McCullough. I hope I don't get the details wrong, but at one point, this religious nun, religious sister, was reporting abuse that a priest was doing to a, to their, to her bishop. I think this was in the 1800s, I think, and for a time, this religious sister was excommunicated and that excommunication was lifted. And now she's a canonized saint. So was she separated from Christ from those months? Like the catechism says, God has bound salvation to his sacraments but he is not bound by his sacraments. He's not limited to his sacraments. So we have some hope that even if someone's distant, they may be closer to him than we know. You know, he's only taught us the Great Commission. You know, judgment is ours. He has the knowledge and the heart and the wisdom to judge. But he hasn't taught us any other way of salvation besides through the, you know, visible church. So, you know, if, if, if I was innocent and got excommunicated, I'd be greatly distressed, but I wouldn't be certain I was going to hell. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Why would you make the distinction? Or why do cat. Why? I guess. So you said something very interesting there, that he has only shown us that the way of salvation is through the visible church. And I am going to perhaps split a hair, maybe not, and I think it'll be fairly obvious where I'm going. But I would say that the only way he has shown a salvation is through Christ alone. I guess you would say that's the same thing. [00:55:12] Speaker B: Yeah. St. Joan of Arc. Now, this was during a corrupt trial which wasn't following canon law, as I understand about her, you know, heresy and witchcraft. But she said, as to Jesus and the Church, I believe there's simply just one thing. We shouldn't complicate the matter. I mean, like, the Church is the body of Christ. So, you know, to be united to one is united to the other. But, but, you know, the kingdom, the church subsists in the Catholic Church, but there are, you know, all validly baptized persons have a communion, though imperfect to it. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Would you draw a distinction between a visible and invisible church? [00:55:59] Speaker B: I mean, if the, if we mean all people who get saved in the end belong to the invisible church, then yes, you know, because there's no salvation outside the church. But we do have hope that maybe people outside the visible church could be saved. But Jesus hasn't explained how he might do that, and we should presume on it. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Interesting, interesting. Where. Where we bristle at this point is that this need to join a earthly organization in order to be saved. But of course, once again, that's going to be a distinction that y' all are going to draw as well, because you're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church is not a human instinct institution, but a divine institution. Right? [00:56:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Both end. [00:57:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. [00:57:03] Speaker B: Like I think Ignatius of Antioch says, do nothing apart from the bishop. You know, like being communion with your local bishop was really, really important. Now, he either made it up or he got that from the apostles. [00:57:14] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, well, I think, I think, I think phrasing it that way is disingenuous. Which one to say, to say he either made it up or he got it from the apostles. I, I think, I think that's a bit, a bit disingenuous because it's, it's, it's passing it, it's, it's, I don't know, it's not like a false dichotomy, but, but it's, it's leading to the answer. Right? Well, it's like, well, it's either either Ignatius is a liar or he got it from the apostles. [00:57:56] Speaker B: Kind of an honest misunderstanding is another possibility. But, you know, like this is like 110ad or like 90ad with Clement of Rome, you know, these guys, like new, new apostles or new people who knew apostles, you know. [00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So well, I mean, it could be though, it could be that he didn't receive that from the apostles, but the Holy Spirit, through his own life and experience has taught him, hey, it's better to be secure to sort of the Church or to your, you know what I mean? I, I don't have, I, I don't have. I, I, My grievance here is with framing, with framing, he made it up, sure to be a. Because it could, it could genuinely have originated with him. The idea could have originated with him, but that doesn't make it a, a bad or a false or an incorrect idea either. [00:58:58] Speaker B: Like prudent but not God ordained or not required. [00:59:07] Speaker A: I, I mean, I don't even know that I would necessarily go that far. I'm not, I'm not going to obviously put the writings of any Father or Tradition on the same level as Scripture, which I'm going to say is God breathed. But I am, I am certainly willing to say it was perhaps wisdom from the Holy Spirit and is very prudent advice, you know, that I think we have to, especially with tradition, we have to make room for things that are, that do come along later. Right. That are sort of accretions. But accretions into the faith can be wise, Spirit driven, prudent. You know, the, the development of catechetical forms throughout, throughout the Church's history has never been uniform. You know, the catechetical development of parishioners has never been a uniform singular practice throughout Church history. It's varied quite widely throughout Church history. The biggest cataclysm was the legalization of Christianity under Constantine. Now all of a sudden there's too many people to do sort of individual tutelage. Right. And so now we have to find different ways to do catechesis. But that doesn't mean that what these, our ancestors in the faith came up with is wrong. It's, you know, it can. There's still room for it to be spirit driven, prudent, wise things, but nonetheless new things. Right. Because God still works in his church. Right. Like he does or he doesn't. [01:00:59] Speaker B: Sure. I guess. Like sacred scripture and sacred tradition both reflecting divine revelation. Like how, you know, if you wrote down all the things Jesus said and did, I don't think all the books in the world could hold them, you know, and that's John, you know, like, like the early church fathers. If, okay, maybe they're misguided and got off track together. That's. I, I don't. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Oh, I don't think that at all. [01:01:29] Speaker B: Okay, so if they're reflecting a. This is how authority and leadership works in the church. You know, you can find like, scriptures like, you know, be obedient to your leaders and your authorities, you know, like in Romans and like, like early church. What they did in the early church seems like it's a reflection of how do we understand this scripture? You know, because you can take it different ways because different traditions take it different ways. You know, it doesn't mean this, it means that, but it feels like that, you know, late first century and early second century would have the best takes on how the apostles understood these messages that are conveying. [01:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, and I agree. [01:02:09] Speaker B: You know, and if they're united on an opinion about things like, like priesthood or confession or intercession of the saints or prayers to the dead or the battlestock succession or bishop leadership, you know, to, to choose another one seems, I don't know, dangerous, tricky. [01:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. I would have to do a lot more patristic reading, but I feel like a lot of the things that are perhaps, I don't want to say uniquely Roman Catholic because there's a lot of that stuff in the Orthodox as well. Prayers to the saints, etc. Relics and what have you. I think these things are maybe later than 1st 2nd century. I think they probably show up later. [01:03:11] Speaker B: I haven't thoroughly read the scripture. I haven't thoroughly read the fathers either. Like, I've read like Clement from 90 and you get Nation's Letters and Justin Martyr and 150. But, but like, the things that I hear, like Catholic biologists say that there's a consensus of the early church fathers about, you know, they're, they are, they're Catholic things, you know. [01:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's. There's. Certainly. There's certainly a big consensus on the presence of Christ in the supper. There's a consensus on baptismal regeneration, on infant baptism, these sorts of things. There's. There's definitely consensus on those issues. But when. When you say, when you say early church fathers, you're talking half a millennia's worth of dudes, which is actually a very huge span of time. You know, it's. I don't know. It's tricky. I mean, you could, you could. I was, I was just listening to In Issues Etc, which is a. It's a Lutheran podcast on Gregory of Palomas and his Mariology. And you could call him. You could call him a father. I think he was around a thousand. [01:04:30] Speaker B: Okay. [01:04:30] Speaker A: AD but he was. [01:04:33] Speaker B: He was. [01:04:34] Speaker A: He was insane. He was. He was insane. His mariology. His mariology goes beyond the pale. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Like, I'm not familiar with him. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's. It's. I'll. I'll send you the link afterwards to. All this guy does is he spends an hour just reading Palomas quotes, like, in context, like full pages of this guy's thinking on Mary. And he goes so far as to say that, like, there's one mediator between God and man, and that's the Lord Jesus Christ, and there's one mediator between us and Christ, and it's Mary, and that there's no salvation outside of Mary. One must submit to Mary. It goes. It goes. He gets really explicit with it as far as redemptress and, and other other sorts of things to the point that he believes rightly ordered worship should be centered around Mary and not around Jesus. And it's all, it all comes down to Mary gave birth to Jesus. So without Mary, we have nothing. And we should worship Mary instead. [01:05:44] Speaker B: But. But yeah, I think she's a. She's leading. Leading her children to her son. You know, do whatever he tells you, you know? [01:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:52] Speaker B: Behold your mother, behold your son. But. But yeah, it's. She's points. She points to her son. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean, I don't. I don't disagree. I love Mary. I wore my Mary shirt. [01:06:06] Speaker B: Nice. I saw that in your. When you went out for beers with your friend. I saw that. What? Top of that shirt say. [01:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Mother of God. And then down here it says Queen of Heaven. [01:06:16] Speaker B: Queen of Heaven. Nice. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm fine with that. I have no problems with that. Some of my Lutheran friends balk a little bit, but I have no problem with it. But my point is, I think even you, as a Roman Catholic with a very strong Mariology, I think, would balk at some of the stuff that Paloma says about Mary to the point that the Roman Catholic Church, I think the Western church actually condemned him as a heretic over his Mariology. [01:06:47] Speaker B: I. I don't know. I. I think I've heard that name before. I think it might be an Eastern saint. He is not necessarily a Western saint. [01:06:53] Speaker A: He is an Eastern saint. [01:06:55] Speaker B: That's not to say that he's not a saint. I'm not, you know, but. But there's someone I'm engaged with in the past on Twitter and, And he's. He's other apparently other things that if I'm remembering the name Right. And this is the guy, according to this online source, he says a lot of things against Roman Catholicism. So I, I don't know what to make. [01:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Make up one way or the other. [01:07:18] Speaker A: Well, my point. My point in all of this, in this, in this whole little side road is that depending on your definition of early, he's early. He's early. You know, he's. He's somewhere around a thousand. So he's over. Over a thousand years ago. You know. [01:07:41] Speaker B: One of the things in the Catholic faith is the census dalium, which is the belief that, you know, infallibility isn't just in the Pope and the bishops, but also that the whole body of believers won't accept error. I mean, there's always people getting things wrong, there's people teaching false things, but you won't fool the whole church. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:04] Speaker B: About, you know, some, some teaching. And so, you know, even if it was in, you know, 300 AD, if this was the universally held belief about, you know, saints or whatever, you know, even though that's 300 years or 200 years after. After Jesus. You know, unless you're, you know, seeing a. A subsection of the, of the whole. And you're just. Only the. Only the documents that supported the belief survived. The other ones were. Were burned or something like that. But. But it seems like there's beliefs that the whole church held for. For centuries. And. Yeah, either that was heresy or, or it's still true. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's a good point. That's a good point. And that's when I bring up, whenever I talk about infant baptism. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:55] Speaker A: The. I was at. I was at a Baptist Bible study. I got invited to. And I was invited to share the Lutheran view of baptism, which is completely different. Right. Because we're going to believe in baptismal regeneration, washing away of sins, etc. And infant baptism and all this. And we. So after getting. Getting through the initial volley of you might be a heretic, you know, and then we. I managed to move the conversation past that. We get around to infant baptism. And I told them, I said, did you know the very first controversy over infant baptism in the church? There was a guy who said we should wait until they're eight days old to baptize them, because that was when they were circumcised. And baptism is like circumcision in the New Covenant, so we should baptize at 8 days old. And he was roundly condemned by the church at large as a heretic for wanting to wait eight days and not baptizing them immediately when they're born. [01:09:55] Speaker B: And when is that? [01:09:57] Speaker A: That's early. That's early 1200 A.D. i'll put a link in the show notes. [01:10:02] Speaker B: But that parallel always struck me how, you know, like, you, if you're a boy, a Jewish boy, you enter the Old Covenant through no choice of your own. It's just a gratuitous gift to be brought into God's covenant. And so how much greater is the merciful grace of the New Covenant to receive, you know, sonship? [01:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Fascinating. Father, thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. [01:10:28] Speaker B: It's been a pleasure. And if you'd like to do it again, let me know. [01:10:30] Speaker A: Okay. Very good. You have a blog and a Twitter and whatnot and a conference you want to do. [01:10:36] Speaker B: Tell me more. When I went to seminary, I started this blog stuff my sisters will like, because I have three sisters, and I thought this would be a good way to connect with them. I don't know if they enjoyed this stuff, but I thought it was interesting. But it's kind of like my beginning to blogging. And when I got to Twitter, I was like, what am I going to name? I don't got any stuff for sisters. That's what I'll call it. And I started off kind of anonymous, my sister's brother. But then I started, I asked, you know, would it be better for the kingdom if. If I was, you know, visibly a priest, because I don't want my private opinions to, you know, get added weight because I'm a priest or, you know, I tell a dumb joke and people like, oh, that's, you know, that's not right for a preacher. Dumb jokes like that. And. And the survey came back. Yeah, the public. So. So I think it's. It's good because, you know, religious people can be normal people. Quirky and fun. They're not. They don't just, you know, listen to organ music all day and, you know, read books, you know, not there's anything wrong with either of those, but, you know, there's all sorts of different people and. And I hope, I believe it's been fruitful. So stop for sisters on Twitter, which. [01:11:46] Speaker A: I always thought was a reference to nuns. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Nope. My natural sisters. My other one is perishable items. That's perishable pa. Perishable items. Because a good homily should last longer than just one mass. PerishableItems.com you'll see homilies by me and clergy at my parishes. [01:12:07] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. You're trying to put together a Twitter conference? [01:12:14] Speaker B: Yes. I had hopes that an Excelsis Catholic ex Twitter get together meetup conference would happen someplace in a big city in the Midwest, but couldn't secure a location. Might happen in the summer of 2026, but. But I just thought it'd be great for people who know each other online to get together, talk to each other, learn from each other, have fun together, deepen their relationships and the connections that would happen from that. Be good for the kingdom. Heck, there might even be a marriage or two out of a. Out of a meetup like this. [01:12:50] Speaker A: Let's go. So. [01:12:51] Speaker B: So it's a dream of mine. [01:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:53] Speaker B: I'd like to meet my people, the people that I. I'd love to meet my mutuals. That'd be fun. And it'd be a fantastic time. So stay tuned for Excelsis updates. [01:13:02] Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. And I, even though I'm not a Roman Catholic, would show up for that. [01:13:07] Speaker B: Everybody's welcome. [01:13:08] Speaker A: Excellent, Father. Thank you. God bless. [01:13:11] Speaker B: God bless you guys. Thank you.